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Ive had a question or two rattling in my brain.
It would seem to me from my somewhat limited understanding of the foods being eaten by medieval peasants that nutritional deficiencies, particularly scurvy from a lack of available sources of Vitamin C, would be endemic, or at least barely kept at bay by what was available.Some chronic malnutrition would seem to be expected, especially during winter/early spring when there is nothing green left to eat.AND YET these people were doing alot of back breaking work everyday, had a very limited seeming diet,and no obvious deficiency epidemics were reported,so how were they NOT getting deficiencies?What sources of vitamin C would be available, other than green leafys in the Summer months?
When people on a year long ,experimental archeology experiment in an iron age village in England( as reported in the book"Living in the Past') were asked what the craved, they said oddly enough , it wasn't sweet things, but very specifically sour things.This would lead me to hypothesize that the traditional local diet in England(at least as reconstructed) was deficient/low in vitamin C.
Does anybody here have any knowledge/sources of daily/seasonal foods for a "working class" medieval person of any location/period?
It would seem to me from my somewhat limited understanding of the foods being eaten by medieval peasants that nutritional deficiencies, particularly scurvy from a lack of available sources of Vitamin C, would be endemic, or at least barely kept at bay by what was available.Some chronic malnutrition would seem to be expected, especially during winter/early spring when there is nothing green left to eat.AND YET these people were doing alot of back breaking work everyday, had a very limited seeming diet,and no obvious deficiency epidemics were reported,so how were they NOT getting deficiencies?What sources of vitamin C would be available, other than green leafys in the Summer months?
When people on a year long ,experimental archeology experiment in an iron age village in England( as reported in the book"Living in the Past') were asked what the craved, they said oddly enough , it wasn't sweet things, but very specifically sour things.This would lead me to hypothesize that the traditional local diet in England(at least as reconstructed) was deficient/low in vitamin C.
Does anybody here have any knowledge/sources of daily/seasonal foods for a "working class" medieval person of any location/period?
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Re: scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies in the traditional European medieval diet
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 8:24 AMAgape - I'm sure you could dig up some research yourself on the average diet with a quick google (though diet would change region to region) and, if medical anthropology is what you're studying you undoubtedly have better resources than most of us here! That said, a little bit of common sense and a even a vague knowledge about food goes a long way with these kinds of questions. The most obvious things that people ate to get vitamin C was jams, preserves and pickles, dried fruits, and cabbage and carrots which would have been kept in a root cellar. -
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Re: scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies in the traditional European medieval diet
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 10:21 AMAHHH, cabbage, right,
I'd spaced that one, I keep forgetting how well it keeps during winter.Although, you would have to eat about 2 -3 cups of it a day to make your RDA of Vitamin C,which seems like an awful lot.And according to the Wikipedia article on scurvy, many sailors who tried cabbage or sour kraut as a anti scurvy found it inadequate as a treatment.
Even with the various preserves and pickles,it still seems like at best a narrow,narrow margin between being healthy and quite sick for the general population ,especially during the winter.If this isn't the case, there must be some source of Vitamin C in the traditional diet that I'm completely missing.There must be something that was accessible the poor that was being eaten,or there were lots of sub clinical deficiency diseases around,which became acute when you were out to sea,that the land diet was able to beat back into being sub clinical.
Im wondering how many/often rose hips were eaten.That would seem to be an easy answer as an ubiquitous European Vitamin C source if they were consumed regularly.
This line of thinking all stared while I was reading a book called"Napoleons Buttons" ,which is a look at how various advances in chemistry changed the world.In the chapter on scurvy and the discovery of Vitamin C, they describe that people only could determine that a lack of fresh food/continuous exposure to iron rations caused the disease, and that sailors ,once home , quickly recovered.There was a ongoing hypothesis at the time that it was access to fresh MEAT that was the core issue(which contains a fair bit of Vitamin C also, but I'm sure that was also quite rare, especially among the poor) And there was some thought that there was a correlation with scurvy to lack of sour foods(sulphuric acid was tried as a treatment,unsuccessfully,.....)I'm wondering if organ meats,which are high in Vitamin C if minimally cooked,could have been a partial answer.
So there was something that would be an everyday food, that poor sailors on leave would be getting easilly, no matter what time of year, which was helping keep the scurvy away for them,and everybody else too.
Any Ideas what that might be?
... and,as for having access to shiny research tools because of my degree,....well, no.....my library research access went away once I got my shiny piece of paper with the Latin words on it.
( sometimes i wish I could trade it back for library access again......)
my professors basic answer to "where do I start' type questions when doing research, is '"look it up online' or "ask people who already know"
Hence ,Tribe...
be well
Agape -
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Re: scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies in the traditional European medieval diet
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 10:52 AMAgape - Rose hips hips were very often made into a jelly as well as a tea. Apple and rosehip jam is a very common combo. Raspberries and currants have a very high vitamin C content too. Sounds like the best place for you to start is by educating yourself about what people actually ate :-)
There still is a very narrow margin between being sick and healthy (one shouldn't romanticize the present!). You should also remember that most people didn't eat nearly as much crap back then as they do now and that, of course, food was farmed organically or picked wild which means it had a much higher nutritional content than the factory farmed food most people eat today. Even today, a recent study in the UK indicates that organic produce has 20-30% more nutrients than factory farmed food does.
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Re: scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies in the traditional European medieval diet
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 11:05 AMAgape - Perhaps you need to take a bit of a deeper look at how people lived back then. Most people didn't live in cities, and even the "poor" tended to grow their own food (and/or hunt and gather in the commons). You are aware that North Americans generally have much worse teeth than many, many people in the world, even including countries such as Africa, aren't you?
Contemporary people eat many, many more empty calories and harmful foods (or food "products") that actually contribute to causing disease so it can quite easily be argued that we - well most Americans - actually eat worse diets even if they eat more.
Um, no reflection upon you but your professors sound kinda lame! How can you not have studied nutrition as part of a degree called medical anthropology? Most "medicines' were actually foods historically - just take a quick look at Chinese medicine and herbal medicine to see this - and Hippocrates himself said "let food be your medicine".
Um, I've already suggested that both sweet and sour preserves of fruit and vegetables can supply vitamin C, not to mention fruit cordials and probably some wines/liqueurs. All these things are traditional in British cooking, and still exist today. I'm not sure why you'd poo poo this common sense and rather obvious answer in favor of trying to find something obscure! You know, Occam's Razor and all :-) -
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Re: scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies in the traditional European medieval diet
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 1:17 PMIn response to Fifi
You are preaching to the choir about the modern western diet and its harmfulness.I am one of the founders of an Intentional Community which strictly eats by the Weston Price foundation/ Nourishing Traditions model,and feel VASTLY better because of it.Food and medicine can be the same thing,and in most cases certainly ARE.
As far as my degree,my main focus was how indigenous cultures conceptualize and treat mental illnesses, specifically how the Yakut, Tungus,and other Siberian tribes people relate to Schizophreinform conditions,and how that their "Shamans disease" and the resultant shamanic initiations seems to be a form of treatment for people who have these sorts of symptoms.I also focused somewhat on the treatment of PTSD like symptoms by traditional healers amongst the Maya.There wasn't really any place to focus on clinical nutrition at all, and Umass is so compartmentalized that it is difficult enough to take courses outside of ones major that it really wasn't worth it to push the issue.( I almost couldn't take an ethnobotony class without yards of paperwork and having to have 3 different professors fill things out for me,all because technically it was a Plant and Soil Sciences class)
My focus was on inter cultural psychology, so along with Umass's very Native American focused cultural Anthro classes,I took alot of Psych and brain science classes.I also interned for 4 years with an acupuncturist and TCM herbalist during my college days,and learned alot about TCM food cures and dietary traditions.I have also studied a fair bit of Galenical/western herbal medicine , as well as a lot of nutritional medicine as well as I can on my own.Id say that i have a fairly well rounded understanding of the subjects involved.
As far as poo pooing traditional common sense,that is exactly what I was trying NOT to do here.Traditional people can be far smarter than the lot of us,and usually are about alot of things local to them, if their culture is intact,and I was certain that the indigenous Europeans were just as smart as any other traditional peoples.
I figured that the European poor folx had something that I was missing( like the rose hips ,which I wasn't even sure was an Old world food,particularly because they grow wild all over the beaches here in New England)And that their source for vitamin C,particularly in the winter was something that everybody had,and wasn't reported because it was so common(like organ meats and cabbage,)or was something specific, like the Northeast natives use of Cedar tea for scurvy,which could have been lost culturally over time.
I was saying that according my limited understanding of the diet, there HAD to be something,and that I was missing it.(or people would have had to have been alot sicker than we assume,which was another possibility I was broaching).And I was asking this list what it could have been,and for leads to learn more.
I wasn't looking for anything obscure,per se, I was admitting my ignorance, that I was probably missing something obvious,due to my limited understanding of poor peoples food in pre modern times.Most of the primary sources Ive found on the subject of pre modern European peoples' food have all been for rich peoples recipe books(ie i could find nothing on what lower class folx were eating),and all of the secondary sources have been archaeological dig reports where most of the not so obvious stuff doesn't preserve well.I was hoping for leads in looking at other resources about this subject I haven't been exposed to yet.
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Re: scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies in the traditional European medieval diet
Sun, November 18, 2007 - 6:45 PMTake heart, agape. You've got amazing creds... wow!
Have you considered lichens? The Scandinavians ate them (truly no fresh veg up there!) and they certainly interbread with most everybody in Europe. Also, would the C in cabbages and kale become concentrated in soups? I think of this because the Scots word for soup is "kale" as it was the basis for virtually all soup, being cheap and available most of the year. Potted haugh and other "potted" meats are minimally processed and preserved with clarified fat (keeps a couple months if cool) or honey (keeps years if done **exactly** right.) Any C there?
Considering your original inquiry stemmed from early modern musings you might take into account the amount of liquor consumed by sailors and other lower class people. Read the book Gin: The Much Lamented Death of Madam Geneva the Eighteenth Century Gin Craze by Patrick Dillon for an excellent history of hard liquor and its' consequences in the period.
There are some good medieval cookbooks in translation out there. Check out some SCA pages (gasp, I know...) to find the references. They're obviously not poor people's food, but they will give you an idea of what was available. Cellaring might be another avenue to explore- a cool place of about 40 degrees F. (not hard to find in northern Europe) is perfect for keeping apples well into spring. You have to eat them as they start to go off or they all go bad, so there's another hit of tasty fresh vitamins.
Good luck!
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Re: scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies in the traditional European medieval diet
Mon, November 19, 2007 - 4:51 AMThis is a very interesting question, and one that I have wondered about also. I have a long background in medieval/early modern European food history, and this issue is still not entirely clear, and it never will be, because we just don't have many primary sources on what poor people ate in that time period.
That said, I've accumulated a number of theories. Here goes, in no particular order:
* Sailors at that time were often out to sea for longer periods than the winter periods in northern Europe when fresh produce was not available.
* Some of the poorer folks on land at that time may well have come dangerously close to scurvy, but contrary to popular belief, peasants were not always doing back-breaking work year-round. They worked much less in the winter, constrained by the fewer hours of daylight and the limited amount of farm work that was needed in that season. So many of them might have gotten a bit sickly by the time spring came around, without it being seen as such a problem as it was on the ships.
* Beer, beer, and beer. It was the main beverage of northern European peasants, and it has vitamin C (well, at least some varieties). Ships rarely had it as it was not cost effective to keep on board.
* All the winter veggies and herbs that are high in vitamin C, like parsely, watercress, kale, cabbage, and SAUERKRAUT. Emphasis on that last one because, supposedly, that's how Germans got the "kraut" moniker: They were smart enough to give their sailors sauerkraut to prevent scurvy. (The "limeys" fared worse, I guess, because limes don't have that much vitamin C, but that's another story.)
* Offal (organ meats): The relatively small amounts of vitamin C provide the only known theory as to how the Inuits (Eskimos) of northern Canada and Alaska have been able to thrive on an almost entirely meat-based diet. This also supports the theory of genetic differences in terms of how much vitamin C an individual needs.
* Lichens: Good info from April here. Some varieties are apparently very rich in vitamin C. I suspect this was only eaten by the most northern (Scandinavian) European people, but it might explain how the Vikings survived.
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